Peers in a Pod 7 Fran

In this long overdue episode the fantastic Fran talks about a journey with a pet, a journey in a career spanning many different experiences, and discovers a whole new type of biscuit. This is the seventh episode of Peers in a Pod- the podcast all about Peer Support work. We once more seek to find out what makes Peer workers tick and all the fascinating things we get up to.  Who are we? What do we really DO ? How did we get here?  
Peer Trainer Fiona Eastmond interviews peer workers from across the NHS. This time you can also join the new Patreon and Ko-Fi pages to make a small donation to help keep the episodes coming. 

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Transcript

Fiona: 0:11

Hi, my name is Fiona Eastmond and this is Peers in a Pod. about peer support working who are we? What do we do? Most importantly, what are our favorite biscuits? Just before you listen to Fran's episode, it's important to mention, that since recording In 2021. Fran has become the peer lead for CNWL. I'm here today with Fran who was a peer support worker and now has a very long job title, which I'm sure that we'll talk about in a bit. So Fran, welcome to"peers in a pod".

Fran: 0:42

Hi, Fiona. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's a pleasure. I'm really excited to, be here.

Fiona: 0:49

would you like to introduce yourself,

Fran: 0:51

yes, I'm Fran. I am currently the deputy peer support lead at CNWL and really excited to be here today.

Fiona: 0:59

It's lovely to see you because we can see each other, but obviously we're not. It's not a video podcast that would be a different podcast. So my first question, what is peer support?

Fran: 1:11

I guess there's types of peer support, so there's Informal peer support that I think has always happened and always will happen. And then there's the more formalized peer support that we have in the NHS, outside of the NHS and throughout more formal roles the thing for me about peer support that branches all of those is that it's a really non-hierarchical way of supporting each other. So it's real shoulder to shoulder work. No one is an expert it's really about helping people on their own journey and figuring out their own expertise in their own life, and it does come from sometimes hard-won learning Difficult life experiences. And essentially particularly at CNWL the way that we want peer support to happen is, where people have experiences that are really relatable to the people that are coming into our services. So that there is a level of being able to really truly empathize about where someone's at. And I think it's a really honest and brave way of supporting each other. That Dave Gilbert quote the, the jewels from the caves of suffering comes to mind my manager always uses that. And I think it's just such a beautiful quote because that's essentially what peer support is. It's really a passion to use all those jewels and gems that you've learned, throughout your own journey to help other people and to try and guide them and encourage them and be there to, help facilitate in any way possible their own recovery journey.

Fiona: 2:42

I think that the"jewels from the caves of suffering" quote is one of my absolute favorites.

Fran: 2:48

And that's, I guess that's one of the things that it really of brings up as well. Peer support is, it's brave because sometimes you really have to see things about, yourself or your own journey, that can be quite painful. And peer support is also about looking after yourself to make sure that you can help people when sometimes the things that they're going through are part of your own, story. And that can be quite painful to, to revisit And so making sure that things feel robust enough yourself to be able to look at those things. sometimes, yeah. Sometimes things hit us and you go, wow. I hadn't thought about that for a long time and peer support was also taking that responsibility to then of do something with that and make sure that you bring that to someone or you try and heal that a little bit, or with, even with the person that you're supporting. So that's part of the never-ending journey of recovery and peer support

Fiona: 3:39

daily, we use our pain that can be. As horrible as it sounds and as amazing as it can be

Fran: 3:45

It's both sometimes at the same time, but it's just that transmuting, that pain into something meaningful that can actually help someone. Is one of the things I find personally most valuable and from my own experience, peer support is actually being able to say, yes, this is painful. Yes. That was really painful, but I'm, creating something from that. That means someone else can benefit. And it gives meaning to that pain,

Fiona: 4:10

the years of what we like to call recovery and really were years of distress and working with distress and doing the work and being in pain, sometimes it helps them to feel, not wasted.

Fran: 4:22

yes. Oh my gosh. Yes. I think until I found peer support as a passion and something, as a career, essentially, I thought I'd just wasted a whole load of years of my life in pain. But what was the point of that? Couldn't I have just not done that and, just, not experienced all of that.

Fiona: 4:41

As if you had some kind of control over it As if you could have somehow just pulled yourself together.

Fran: 4:46

it's difficult to say, because obviously there are people involved in, and there were certainly people involved in my own journey that suffered alongside me. So it's difficult for me to say, oh, I'm glad it happened because at the same time, that would mean that I'm okay with other people having gone through, how painful it can be to see your loved one suffering, but from a very selfish point of view, I'm glad it happened because it's given me a purpose, and meaning that I didn't think I would get from that.

Fiona: 5:14

Yeah, Good. I love that. This can be a loaded question. And in the typed questions, it does have a capital"R" What is recovery anyway?

Fran: 5:25

I would like to answer simply from my own perspective, because I think one of the, I think that's one of the principles of recovery is it's self-defined. And so I can only really answer that. from my own definition of what recovery means to me and what it meant to me. Certainly from my perspective, it's never ending it's a journey And it's sometimes slow and it's sometimes non-linear For me, I think recovery was a process of understanding initially. So firstly, understanding what I was experiencing what I guess clinically was being called symptoms, but essentially what I was experiencing. I had to understand that was a reaction for me to something. And it was the best I could do at the time, because I didn't know any better. I didn't have the skills or knowledge or I was simply reacting and surviving. And it was being experienced as a set of symptoms that people were observing, but for me, that's not how I would have defined it. But it was a coping mechanism. And then I guess, Once I understood that I was reacting to something. I had to understand what I was reacting to. And that was a really long healing process with ups and downs and bumps and breakthroughs, and then catapulting back and, then launching forward and all sorts of things. But I guess it involved a lot of yes, understanding what I was reacting to, why certain things had happened. A lot of a lot of renegotiating relationships, a lot of understanding what boundaries were and you know, that I had a right to boundaries and how to communicate that a lot of processing of emotions and feelings from grief to anger to, to eventually I think forgiveness of others and myself as well. And I think really at a sense, at some point of personal drive and responsibility that even though it felt wrong and unfair that a whole load of things had happened and that I was essentially feeling like I was being punished because I was reacting in a certain way that was getting me in all sorts of trouble, but actually eventually a personal responsibility that I was the only one that could truly get myself out of that. And that was took a while to get to and even the motivation to, to get to that took awhile. And then I guess eventually when that did. That penny did drop and that that belief, I started believing that I could get myself out of the situation that I'd got myself in. And I had to learn a whole load of new coping mechanisms because from the understanding that I'd got I was reacting to something and the coping mechanisms, I were using were a survival mechanism. I couldn't just take them away. I had to replace them with something because otherwise it was natural that I needed something. So it was a whole journey of figuring out what better looked like for me, what growth looked like for me, what healing looked like and all the tools that I needed. And I guess also the people that I needed to help me along the journey as well.

Fiona: 8:34

really important and I guess who you were, what you looked like to you

Fran: 8:38

Yeah, absolutely. And that, I wasn't who I'd got myself to believe to be, if that makes any sense at all. I suppose it was about understanding that there was a me beyond just my thoughts of myself. And that my thoughts of myself weren't necessarily true because they were tainted by a lot of things. And that was part of what I was experiencing. It's a weird dichotomy of you almost have to learn to trust yourself, but also not trust. Everything your mind tells you, which is the part of me that I should be listening to right now. And that I think for me personally, a huge part of my recovery. And definitely still something that I confront myself with daily.

Fiona: 9:21

For me, it was like process of weaving or knitting, where I had to constantly unpick and go back and change colors and change textures, go back and unpick, and then there were holes and then someone at it, then I had a dream about it. Then it trebled in size. It was a very strange. And as you say, non-linear piece of work and I say was,

Fran: 9:48

Yeah. Yeah. And it changes shape and it changes colors and it changes the way it presents itself to you. And it's oh, okay. Thought I dealt with that. But no. Okay. That's fine. There's another layer there's another source. Yeah, I guess it's leaning into that I think maybe there was a time when I didn't want to lean into that or I thought it was wrong or I thought there was something wrong with me. And so I distracted myself a lot from it, whereas I'm not as scared of what comes up anymore. I'm able to look at it a little bit more bravely. And I guess that comes from experience of not, surviving, essentially having done that already at times,

Fiona: 10:29

I think very much yeah it comes with practice. To look inside ourselves is really frightening. And it takes a long time to lose that anxiety, especially with the stigma of mental health, because society and. All of our conditioning leads us to believe that we are fundamentally broken. So to look inside of ourselves is to seek something that's obviously horrible Whereas actually we're really doing is we're peeling back layers like old paint and discovering all the different colors underneath.

Fran: 11:02

Yeah. And I think there's a self-acceptance that, that is a really brave self-acceptance. The possibility of being anything and everything, it lies within all of us, the good, the bad, the ugly, all of it is possible in every single human being. And there's needs to be that I think collective humility to be able to go well, actually, we're all capable of going down into the darkest depths of who we are and being, the worst versions of ourselves, all of those things and acting the moment that you accept that's a possibility in all of us, then there's a radical self-acceptance. I think that's what they call that makes it more of a collective endeavor rather than a singling out of people that are just different.

Fiona: 11:49

It becomes less. What is wrong with you then? What happened to you? Or what is wrong with you then? Who are you?

Fran: 11:56

Absolutely. Who are you? How is what's happened to you manifesting in the way that you're experiencing the world living in the world, reacting to the world without that blame, because actually it's, what's happened to you. That's made that, the case there's some things that are unique about me that will mean that we might have the same experience and we'll react very differently, but that's just because we wired differently and that's okay. And the more I understand about myself and the more you understand about yourself in the way that you've reacted, the more we can support people that are reacting similarly to life to understand themselves better.

Fiona: 12:33

It's really slow process of dissolving the blame, the shame as well.

Fran: 12:37

Yes. It takes energy to show up to that. I've always really connected and been inspired by people that have experienced things like, mental distress or, people that, keep showing up to life. because that's really where strength is where you you've really seen some dark places and you're still here, and you're still fighting. You're still turning up every day. And even if that turning up every day is lying in bed, there's something really incredible about that. And I just really admire anyone that goes through hardship.

Fiona: 13:10

what is your most often used recovery tool?

Fran: 13:13

There's some things that I do on a daily basis that kind of help me keep on an even keel. But then there's some things that I do reactively when things are really you know, off, and that's putting my headphones in putting my music on really loud and going for a really powerful walk. Proper steps, like stomps in the ground. And the music will be very much in line with what I'm feeling at the time. If it's raining even better. That just adds to the movie of it. It's yeah.

Fiona: 13:42

So it's almost like you're taking the drama and literally acting it out.

Fran: 13:48

Yeah. And grounding it though as well. Yeah. Acting it out, grounding it feeling it like intensely validating, absolutely accepting it. And there's like a real catharsis to that as well. So there's also releasing it at the same time, so yes. But yes, you're completely right. There's an acceptance of it in order to engage in that, and not shying away from it. Just going okay, fine. I'm going to feel all of this and really feel it and go for it and yeah. Act it out as well, but in a way that's safe and to me, and it doesn't hurt other people,

Fiona: 14:21

it's safe. It's boundary is suitable. It's sounds like it's enjoyable.

Fran: 14:27

is actually, and also a little bit comical. There's a moment. There's usually a moment where I'm out of what I'm feeling enough to actually laugh at myself.

Fiona: 14:39

It's like when the the cortisol's gone and calmed down a bit and you're just like, oh yeah, I just did that.

Fran: 14:47

Yeah. And it's all the more hilarious if it's raining and you're like, ah,

Fiona: 14:53

Oh yeah. I love going out in rain. I really don't mind if it's raining very heavily. I definitely believe that there is no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing. So it's a slightly more serious question. How did you get into your current role and what is it.

Fran: 15:11

My current role is as deputy peer support lead for peer support, at CNWL that really involves supporting the lead for the trust, and really making sure that the workforce of people with lived experience in our trust are well-supported that their voices are heard that they're doing the roles that they came into the job to do that they've got the possibility to progress, to learn, to really get what they want out of the role and to get that fulfillment and meaning from the role and also to make sure that our workforce grows and the idea is that lived experience, voices are everywhere really making sure that those voices are present and heard and people feel empowered to have those platforms and to support people in our services.

Fiona: 15:57

I think the everyday actual work of the size of a role like that. Especially as a fledgling deputy lead for a trust, that's had a lead for a while, but not a deputy and a trust. That's had a peer support workforce for a while, but mainly at very low bands, the actual day-to-day work of that role. I was going to say, job doesn't sound right. The day-to-day work of that role must be quite a heavy workload and reasonably complex, but also you might be called upon, at any moment.

Fran: 16:35

you have to be really responsive. And sometimes responsive to things that it's new and you don't know exactly how to respond. And so there's a lot of thinking on your feet, but also sometimes of actually going, okay, we need to slow down because actually we need to think properly about the work that we do. And loads of flexing of muscles that I didn't know, I had sometimes but also just creation of new muscles from scratch. One of the things that we really want to. Make sure that we do is that the voices that are in the organization in terms of our workforce are actually representative of the communities that we are serving. And I think that's really something that we are trying to focus on more and more to make sure so that the coproduction is at the heart of what we do. And actually that the voices, the lived experience versus within our services, aren't just sole voices. They're the voices of the communities that they are also serving. So one of the things that I learned very quickly was that it wasn't just about my story. When I was a peer support worker, it was about the story of the people that were using this service. It's also about making sure that the organization understands what peer support is, what lived experience roles are. And that they're truly valued so that's a big part of the role as well. Actually, a lot of education, if I can say that. Myth-busting and yeah that's a really integral part of the role in liaising, a lot with teams and managers around that. So how did I get into the role? I guess I'll start from the beginning of my journey in peer support so I didn't even know that peer support was a formal. Thing at all. I always, in my own experience had thought that it would have been great to meet people that were maybe a little bit further along their recovery because they might know how I was feeling and what I was experiencing rather than maybe some of the professionals that I encountered who I didn't really feel understood what was going on for me. So that concept was there, but I never really knew it had a name I found very, very randomly came across a job advert for a Peer Support Worker at the Gordon hospital in 2012

Fiona: 18:36

Really early

Fran: 18:37

Yeah. And I was like, whoa, this sounds incredible. And I'm really confused as to how this is a job and this exists, this is amazing. Like what? I do a lot of recruitment now and a lot of people say that to me and it's yeah, I know.

Fiona: 18:49

I think that when people come up to you and say, is your job real in a way like, oh my goodness, not only do people like him exist, but I want to do what you do. Cause it wouldn't feel like a job is an amazing feeling.

Fran: 19:01

So I saw this job advert and I thought I have to go for this. This is amazing. This isn't what, I was trying at the time to carve myself into the psychology route because I thought this is where, how I can use my experience, and that is very different, but I wanted to help people because I wanted to use my experience, but I didn't think I could use it explicitly in the way that peer support does. And so then I saw that and I was like, I've got to go for this. And I got the job. And to this day I have just the best memories and it was a Rocky start. I remember having a really difficult time at the beginning. And then almost overnight became the best job I've ever had. And I was there for a few years. And then I needed, I felt like I needed progression. There were no senior posts at the time. I was still a band three and I needed to do something to feel that I was progressing in some way. And I'd worked alongside a lot of psychologists at the Gordon and they were really encouraging me to, to follow the psychology route. So I ended up going for an assistant psychologist job and felt so constrained because I was working with carers at the time and I knew that all they wanted to hear was. I've been there. It's okay. Like you haven't lost your loved one. There's hope, there's all of this stuff that I wasn't allowed to say in my role and that wasn't my job. I was meant to do CBT with them and it was like, I want to tell you that there's hope and I am, but I would love to tell you that actually I'm someone that's been somewhere that her mom thought would never come out of. And here I am, but I couldn't anyway. So I felt really constrained by that and ended up seeing finally the progression job that there was that I'd looked for. And it was a senior peer support worker role, and I thought amazing. And I went for that and I got that job and actually loved it that was in Westminster community. And then a peer tutor role in our safety team which was for therapeutic management of violence and aggression. And that was essentially training staff in the use of physical techniques. But more than anything, our focus was on deescalating situations but the beauty of that role is using your own lived experience of having been in restraint and also as a staff member, having witnessed some things that happen sometimes on the ward and really using that lived experience to try and teach a different way, really try and help staff understand what might be going on, what helps, what doesn't really get into the kind of. How people feel in that situation, especially if it does have to come to restrain And yeah, that was a great role. I, again, it hit a bit of a brick wall in terms of progression I felt that I wanted to do more, there wasn't anything at the time. I very randomly actually found a management scheme in the NHS at UCLH. And I thought maybe this is the way I progress. And maybe this is something that I go, and I actually go work in management and help use my lived experience, not maybe explicitly, but at least in a way that can inform how our services run. So I did that and it was in physical health and I didn't have the best time I think if it had been what I really wanted to do, I think I would have really stuck it at the management scheme because, it was a lot of hard work, so I needed it to be what I wanted. And to be completely honest with you, I missed peer support. Again, the same thing basically happened. I felt constrained in my role. I felt that it wasn't what I really wanted. And so why I came back to CNWL again and vowed to never leave again. So I'm here for life.

Fiona: 22:25

The last time I saw you in real life,

Fran: 22:28

I know.

Fiona: 22:28

you are staying now, aren't you?

Fran: 22:29

I said, I'm not leaving. There's no way I'm leaving. At the time I was working in a interim post and the deputy role didn't exist yet at the time, but it was essentially quite similar to the role that I'm doing at the moment. So I did that on a temporary basis, with the hope that the deputy role that it was right for me and that I could go for it and that it would actually of come about. And so then when the permanent deputy role was advertised, I just went for it and so now I've been in the deputy role, officially, since April.

Fiona: 22:59

How's it been? How's it treating you?

Fran: 23:00

It's good. I feel like I had a good induction period in terms of doing a very similar role for a year. It's a great role. I'm really happy in it.

Fiona: 23:09

So here's the most challenging question without seeming reductive. Could you describe your typical working day using only five words?

Fran: 23:18

yes, I did see this and I thought, oh, that's going to be fun to answer. Busy, meaningful. Unpredictable, empowering and exciting. Is that five?

Fiona: 23:29

Yeah. Everybody says five different ones, which is wonderful. I did think about taking this question out because it seemed reductive and then a few people did some that were really interesting. And I think that I'm going to try and make a piece of artwork out of everybody's words.

Fran: 23:45

oh, that'd be fun. Love the name by the way.

Fiona: 23:49

I can't remember how I came up with it.

Fran: 23:51

It's brilliant. It's genius.

Fiona: 23:53

Thank you. A good title is really important.

Fran: 23:55

You never cease to astound me. You've always got genius. I always, I constantly think man genius in relation to you.

Fiona: 24:02

always something up the sleeve. Thankyou.

Fran: 24:05

If you would ask me for five words to describe you, one of them would have been genius.

Fiona: 24:11

So we're coming up to that part what are you most proud of in your work? amazing story.

Fran: 24:18

It's from years ago, but I still remember it because. It just, I don't know, touched me, so I was working with a gentleman who we can call Josh and he, at the time I'd he'd been working with another peer for a long time and had built a really amazing relationship. And I remember thinking, oh my goodness, I can't fill these boots. I genuinely remember thinking that and then thinking, okay, Fran we'll, you're you, and you've got your own thing to bring. And anyway so this gentleman lovely chap, he had really a lot of anxiety leaving the house, a lot of anxiety Seeing other people, a lot of anxiety lack of esteem, in himself. He was living in quite terrible conditions at the time. He had a really difficult landlord. And he got very little notice of eviction from his flat. well, we tried to appeal it. And I remember that was one of the things that one of his first really of scary things that he had to do was actually go with me to this appeal. And. We lost that, which was devastating, but I was, I remember just being so proud of him for showing up and for really holding his own. And I think he saw that and, he let me know how anxious he was but I just remember being quite astounded at even the strength that took. And so then it we ended up spending quite a few afternoons in housing association, looking for emergency temporary accommodation for him and kept getting batted back and eventually he got something, but the devastating news about that was that he wasn't allowed pets. And he had a pet Azekiel. We'll call him who was everything for him. And basically I think. Saved his life, essentially a lot of times. That was a really dark moment where I had to tell him that I couldn't promise anything, but that I was going to do absolutely everything in my power to make sure that he would have Azekiel back and that everything was going to be okay. We'd got to know each other quite well. And I think he knew that I was being honest when I said that I couldn't promise anything, but that I would absolutely do everything. And I was working with some brilliant people at the time and they understood I spoke to my team and I think I cried actually, when I told them how this was a situation we needed to look after Azekiel and make sure that he would be back with Josh in no time that there was no under no uncertain terms ah, help. What do we do? And they were brilliant and they set up for somewhere where Azekiel would be safe and looked after. I remember looking up their website and vetting it essentially and going, okay, this is and showing obviously Josh as well, and he's going, look, this is where. It's going to be there with very little time as well. So it was we've got to just go with this and to trust that things are going to be okay because he was getting evicted the day after.

Fiona: 27:12

I was just going to say, do I remember that you had less than 48 hours?

Fran: 27:16

So we had less than 48 hours. The animal that he had I'm not going say what animal it was. Cause it might of make him identifiable, but this animal was kept in quite a large container let's say. So transporting this animal was quite difficult. But my team came through and organized for an ambulance to come and pick me, and this container up from the address. I think it was like something ridiculous, like seven, eight they said 7:00 AM in the morning and it wasn't until 10. So I was outside this house with this container. Just go please, just everyone. Leave me alone. Yeah. And I remember I organized for taxi to take Josh to the temporary accommodation. And I'd really hoped that it would happen at the same time, but because the ambulance was late, he had to leave before us. And I have never seen, he was so distressed basically to leave and I was crying and I was like, this is so unprofessional Fran, but it's just happening. And I think, I apologized to him at a later date and he was like, actually, I've, it helps to see that how much he cared. And I was like, good. Cause I couldn't help it.

Fiona: 28:24

I was just going to say, I actually, I don't think that showing emotion is unprofessional. And I think that there's something about the idea of showing emotion, being unprofessional that is fundamentally broken in the caring professions.

Fran: 28:36

Yeah. I didn't want him to think I was, I wanted him to trust that I could handle the situation. So I didn't want my emotions to seem like I was breaking down and not. Together, but I think you're absolutely right. I think emotions are essential because that's what makes us human and that's what communicates. to other people we're connecting with you, we care. So I think that part was fine. So he had to go and I promised him that I would go and see him at the temporary accommodation as soon as I'd organized everything with Ezekiel that happened. And to this day, like the particular two members of staff that helped me with that are just incredible people

Fiona: 29:13

love him. You can

Fran: 29:13

them.

Fiona: 29:14

They know who they are,

Fran: 29:14

they should. And yes, and so then he, I don't know what happened, but I think it was a mixture of determination to get his pet back. I think a belief that had grown in him over the time, because he'd been, I think he'd been exposed to probably the hardest things that he had. He, if you think of where he started, in terms of his level of anxiety, of even leaving the house and the amount of things he'd done go to a, to an appeals court, go to, to find housing for himself, all of these things and how much he'd survived that I think he genuinely started believing in himself and he started looking relentlessly for a flat for himself. To get his pet back. So he did all of that. I literally of turned up two days later and he's I found a flat and I was like, what? Wow. Okay, incredible. And within weeks, essentially, we moved all of his stuff to his new flat. He got Azekiel back who they've actually been looked after really well, which I was so happy for him because that was underlying a real kind of fear of mine that something might happen. And he thriving as far as, it's been a while now, but yeah. Just a completely new perspective on life, a new living accommodation, which was so much better than what he'd left behind. He needed to have someone by his side saying, you can do this as scary as it is. You can do this. And he did. And I think that's one of the most amazing things about peer support is that we don't have low expectations of people. We know how difficult things are, but we know that they can still overcome things. I'm proud of him and Azekiel more than you know that.

Fiona: 30:48

It's wonderful. I remember catching up with you after that had all happened and just wanting to know what had happened and and just being so pleased that they got settled in the end it was the end of a good job. Well done. And I think I can probably speak for both of us. I don't think either of us will ever forget them.

Fran: 31:04

no. Oh gosh, no, I think of them and my heart warms because it's yeah. Two incredible

Fiona: 31:11

Characters.

Fran: 31:12

Characters.

Fiona: 31:13

a couple of slightly more trivial questions to finish. What's your favorite listening when you need a boost and you can pin down just one song, which I'll put on Spotify, but it doesn't mean you can't mention lots of other artists that you really love as well.

Fran: 31:28

okay. That's a tricky one. I'll probably end up showing just a very cheesy side of me because there's some songs that I remember the name and artists from probably older ones. I guess it depends on what kind of boost I need. So when I need a little bit of then it's embarrassing, but I don't care Pavarotti. And specifically the song Nessun Dorma, which is one of his, yes, I listened to that when I really need it then that gives me the fire in my belly. I have a song that I play to myself when I'm going to do something that I'm really nervous about. Like an interview. For example, I've used this song before interviews, this little light of mine that's like when I need to believe in myself and go, I'm just going to be me. That's the song I'm really shy about all of this now. What else when I need a bit of relaxing for not really a boost, but a boost. There's a lovely song called catch and release by Matt Simons, I think.

Fiona: 32:25

that's okay

Fran: 32:26

Mumford and sons. They're always good for energy

Fiona: 32:29

Fantastic.

Fran: 32:30

go on forever. yeah, I'll

Fiona: 32:31

Oh no, it's all good. I'll stick a couple of those on the Spotify.

Fran: 32:34

Talking about the Revolution Tracy Chapman. That's a good one.

Fiona: 32:38

that's an excellent one.

Fran: 32:39

exposed myself so much and it's

Fiona: 32:42

so one of the things that's really good is if you do feel slightly exposed, it normally means that the interview is solid gold. Finally. And importantly, What is your favorite biscuit and why?

Fran: 32:54

so this is a complicated answer because my favorite biscuit, I can't eat. Wait. No, but I have two favorite biscuits and I can't eat and one that has made life better because I can eat it. So my favorite biscuit is actually an Italian biscuit. It's called Baiocchi and it's two, vanilla flavored kind of shortbready style biscuits with chocolate cream in the middle. I can't have dairy products anymore I could as a child. So I remember them very fondly, but I can't eat them anymore because they upset my stomach. But that's up there. Chocolate hobnobs also can't eat them, but. So good.

Fiona: 33:28

I've got a piece of information for you, actually, chocolate chip hobnobs are dairy free. So now I wish it was on video because your FACE

Fran: 33:45

That's a very important piece of information that I've gained. Thank you.

Fiona: 33:50

very important

Fran: 33:51

that's amazing. Okay. On the radar of what I can eat at the moment there's these biscuits that are from, I think a company called rhythm 1 0 8 they make these chocolate Hazel, not as you can see chocolate is the reason why

Fiona: 34:05

It's a feature.

Fran: 34:06

it is a feature. Yeah. It's yeah. It's the feature. They make these dairy-free hazelnut round D round. Cause all biscuits are round from, apart from bourbons

Fiona: 34:16

I it. they make chocolate hazelnut roundy rounds. It's good. I'll get those.

Fran: 34:21

So yeah, so that's, so that chocolate hazelnut rhythm 1 0 8. Currently my favorite, but it may change after tonight.

Fiona: 34:29

And thank you so much for being on. Thank you for all your wonderful honesty and, also your really careful keeping of the confidentiality in your amazing story, which I really liked.

Fran: 34:43

Thank you so much for the time that you're investing in this. Cause I think this is such an amazing initiative and Really look forward to hearing more of the pods. yeah. Thank you so much for inviting me. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure and you're an amazing host as I had doubt of yeah.

35:02

Don't forget to follow me@FionaThePSW or at@PeersinaPod, on Twitter and I very much look forward to having you as my listener again. Should you wish to make a supportive monetary donation to help me generally wrangle this podcast. Then you can find me on Patreon, Peers in a Pod Ko-Fi which is K O hyphen F I just a couple of quid really helps thank you so much for listening.