Peers in a Pod 4 Owen

A rare person in this episode: The Owen, the first ever gambling peer support worker. Here Owen gives us the lowdown on recovery, what he's most proud of, a fabulous uplifting track and the all-important biscuit debate ... Continues. This is the fourth episode of Peers in a Pod- the podcast all about Peer Support work. Who are we? what do we really DO ? how did we get here? In Season 1 Peer Trainer Fiona Eastmond interviews peer workers from across the NHS to find out what makes them tick. Sporadic releases.

Patreon (donate £1 a month)
Ko-Fi (donate any one-off amount)
Twitter (@PeersinaPod)
Twitter (@FionaThePSW)

Transcript

Fiona: 0:11

Hi, my name is Fiona Eastmond and this is Peers in a Pod. about peer support working who are we? What do we do? Most importantly, what are our favorite biscuits? Hello, welcome to peers in a pod podcast my guest today is Owen Bailey.

Owen: 0:28

Hello, I am Owen Bailey. I am the NHS gambling peer support worker for Central North and West London Trust.

Fiona: 0:34

Am I correct in saying you're the only` gambling clinic, peer support worker in the world?

Owen: 0:39

There would have been some accuracy in that. I am the first NHS gambling peer support worker in the UK. And thankfully, there is a second peer mentor working in Leeds now. So there are two of us and we hope that over the next five years, to see up to 20 other gambling, peer support workers like me working in NHS gambling clinics, due to the expansion of gambling treatment services.

Fiona: 1:04

That's absolutely fantastic. And you must be so proud. I know I'm proud of you for being the first. It's so hard to be the first of anything.

Owen: 1:10

Yeah, I feel proud. But it has its challenges leading the way and being a bit of a trailblazer, and being a bit pioneering. It comes with some responsibility, I think.

Fiona: 1:18

What is peer support?

Owen: 1:20

It's an experience whereby someone who has particular lived experience, it could be in my case, addiction and mental health with my gambling, drugs, alcohol, and wellbeing, or someone might have some experiences around, problems and difficulties around eating, and things like that. And so I think the idea of peer support is it's an opportunity for people who have faced and overcome these adversities, or is in the process of overcoming these adversities and difficulties, being able to help others, who are treading a similar journey as them, imparting the knowledge and the insights of how they have faced their adversities in order to be able to help the person help themselves through their journey. So perceive the relationship to be quite reciprocal because by reflecting on my own lived experience of dealing with gambling addiction, for example I think, to use that experience and try and help the other person. I, too get some value out of that, I don't do it because I want to help myself. I do it purely because I have a genuine desire to care and want to help the other person, because I truly believe that a person can, who might experience a gambling problem can overcome his gambling problem and go on to improve their quality of life just as I have. And so to empower that person, to try and help that person, to foster a sense of hope and belief that actually there is a better life ahead of having a gambling problem. Then that's really worthwhile doing.

Fiona: 2:48

Yeah. Yeah, I think so too. It's interesting that you say it's two way. Cause I think everyone who's come on the podcast so far has said similar things, that it's really not a one way thing. In a way, I guess that all human relationships aren't one way. But the peer support relationship seems to particularly be reciprocal, which is really lovely. And of course, it's not just the belief that you carry. It's the actual lived possibility of being okay.

Owen: 3:12

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think, from the people who I've met, over the years, not just within the year, I've been in my current role as gambling peer support worker at the national problem gambling clinic, a lot of people who are struggling with whatever problems they have, that I do get a sense that they do generally look up to people, perhaps look up is not the right word, but they do generally look up to people who have faced similar experiences, who've come through it and think, ah, actually, no, it is possible. The fact that they can speak to someone who has overcome gambling, it shines a light on the prospect that actually there is,, there is a way out, there is light at the end of the tunnel, there is a possibility that I could actually overcome this and work towards achieving what I want in my life as well.

Fiona: 3:54

It's good. I love peer support. You know that, that brings me onto my next question. So around peer support, there's this sort of language and a lot of it is around something called recovery and it's recovery with a capital R that seems to encompass a lot. So what does that mean to you? What is recovery anyway?

Owen: 4:13

Should we be using the word recovery? Is it the most appropriate thing to use? That's the question I want to invite everyone to, consider, because it's something that I, question in myself. And I'm I say this because I've experienced 16 years worth of engaging in drug, alcohol and gambling treatment and various institutions and the language I've encountered in each of these, organizations and institutions, they've always used different language around addiction, recovery, and I've naturally, I think whatever organization or thing we approach we have a tendency to adopt whatever language they may be using at the time. And, I think it's, that's quite understandable. And I think sometimes I certainly haven't. For a long time didn't question the origins as to why we use certain words the way we do. And from what I understand, there's political origins as to why we use the word recovery. And I know as well that, in the addiction recovery world population the term recovery by some is, is contested and questioned and not really accepted. Some people struggle to, interpret and acknowledge recovery as a part of their experience. So I think that understanding what recovery is, I think it's really subjective thing. recovery is whatever it means to you, if you choose to accept, to use the term recovery. So with that, I do recognize the term recovery. I do use it I use it like with a lot of language. I do use it loosely. And for me, what recovery is to me, it is, it is this stage in my life I'm currently in post addiction, I think, in the years I've been trying to get away from addiction, I think in terms of learning how to stop my vices and learning how I can rebuild my life away from my addictive behaviors. I think that's the early experiences of what I consider to be my recovery. For me, recovery is a lifelong ongoing process and recovery has now gone well beyond figuring out how to stop gambling or using drugs or alcohol but it's gone well beyond that. And it's all about how I can continually, maintain. And enhance my coping strategies in life. How I can continue to manage my, periodic experiences of strong emotions, how I can manage my interpersonal and intra-personal relationships, how I can continue to enrich my life, how I can continue to improve upon my spirituality, how I can continue to become a better person day by day, and it all involves, improving my daily routine, improving how I relate to people improving how I look after myself in terms of my health and wellbeing. Encapsulates all of that really it's a huge amount.

Fiona: 6:58

It's a lot of heavy lifting for one word to do. Really? Isn't it?

Owen: 7:01

Like I say, it's very subjective and I think, if someone is relatively new to, acknowledging that they have an addiction problem, the subjective understanding of recovery is limited to their current experience of being in recovery. If that makes any sense,

Fiona: 7:18

I think that defining recovery as is meant by each individual is really difficult. and it's often split into personal recovery and clinical recovery. It's not necessarily quite as black and white as that. For many the word recovery is it sounds like getting back to something, whereas actually it's more of a rebuild because I do believe there is no one answer.

Owen: 7:38

Absolutely. I have not come across one universal answer either. And I think it's really interesting because I've also heard, recovery being a word used to try and explain that we are trying to recover or go back towards something if you know what I mean. And I've relate that to my own experience. And I think there's definitely some element of truth in that for me, I'm not speaking for everyone. When I think back to the challenges that I had as a child and as a teenager, I think that I'm 38 now. I know how I feel. I think in terms of all the work I've done on myself, in terms of where I feel on that, I feel that I've dealt with a lot of those challenges and behaviors that. Proved to be really problematic from a child and as a teenager, which has carried on through my teenage and adult years, which prevented me from growing and progressing and evolving and developing. So having gone through that process of dealing with all of those or most of those majority of those now, I feel at 38, I feel like in some ways I feel in that sort of way, like an 18 year old, who has just completed education, who was looking ahead at his new adult life kind of thing without all these barriers and limitations, through, imposed on by mental health and addiction.

Fiona: 8:48

It does open up a whole new world. Doesn't it? A life beyond what you had thought of your life as, and I suppose got used to your life as it's what it's almost like discovery, isn't it.

Owen: 9:00

Absolutely. And I think the term discovery, is used, a lot and I keep coming across and people referring to, the experience of dealing with addiction and the life afterwards a period of discovery, as opposed to recovery. And I think that is also an equally apt and appropriate term to use and something I do try to use myself, like I say, I having had my life stunted and stopped, for many years, decades now because of my addictions. And to realize a sense of. Freedom and liberation as a consequence of dealing with my addictions and to realize, that actually what I'm experiencing is a process of discovery. I'm discovering new things in my life. And I'm thinking, wow, it is a wonderful and beautiful road, and I'm discovering new things all the time and that discovering new things I'd never even seen before or heard or smelled, it's a wonderful, it's a wonderful journey.

Fiona: 9:48

To describe it as a kind of graduation is good because I think that it reflects that long period of learning and then a big sort of opening up of opportunity towards the end, which is rather wonderful. And it's quite open-ended as well to describe it that way. Thank you. What is, day-to-day your most often used recovery tool? The thing that keeps you going, the thing that helps you tick.

Owen: 10:14

It's a good question. And I really don't know I was thinking about this before talk and there's lots of things. that I use now. I think I'll use a lot of things subconsciously and I perhaps use strategies and tools that. I probably don't even know I'm using anymore, because they've become so automatic. But some of the obvious ones that stick out for me, I'd probably say, it's difficult. Mindfulness. I don't actively sit and practice mindfulness, but I do try to practice whenever I catch myself, feeling that I need to practice a bit of mindfulness.

Fiona: 10:45

That's slowing down and taking time out, even if it's just a tiny bit of time

Owen: 10:50

yeah. And that is something I practice regularly, I would like to practice more mindfulness. There's lots of different mindfulness practices I could be doing more it's a really good, compliment to the work I've done through CBT.

Fiona: 11:04

Yeah. Sometimes the tools in one's toolbox become almost invisible as they become. So well-worn that you've used them so many times that it becomes a part and parcel of how you cope every day. And it's really interesting the way that we absorb those techniques into ourselves in our daily recovery.

Owen: 11:24

and I think it's an important thing we need to achieve and, getting help in order to be able to help ourselves, I think it's the ultimate goal. I think isn't it to get to a point where we can become our own helpers, without feeling we need to, seek. specialist help through treatment providers in order to be able to help us,

Fiona: 11:45

daily day to day, rather than needing to ask somebody for clues, for breadcrumbs, for tips as we go through and do our surviving day to day, and it becomes beyond surviving and existing into living and having your own life the way you want it is it is the ultimate goal. I think you're right to absorb all of those good habits and all of those new habits, and a lot of the self-built habits and for them to become unconscious

Owen: 12:17

it's really interesting. It's a really thought provoking question. And I'm thinking back to when I was like 20 year old, who was in a bit of a mess and the subsequent 16 years I was in treatment. And I think, I've clearly I was someone who had a serious, very troublesome, emotional behavioral issues going on alongside my addictions. I. Clearly was acting in a way that was really self destructive and harmful to me and others. And I needed my, the way I was coping needed to be confronted and challenged, and questioned. And I needed to really review how I was coping. I needed to go through that process of rebuilding healthier ways of coping. And I suppose when I think back to my experience of treatment and things like that, that enabled me to build up that toolkit of things I needed to cope and survive on a daily basis without causing harm to myself and others. So I can begin to thrive and grow and develop and evolve.

Fiona: 13:17

What was the first thing that really cranked your handle in terms of recovery tools? What was the first kind of daily thing that surprised you that started to work in terms of just feeling a bit more as if you were taking some steps on your journey to recovery quite early in recovery. What was the first thing that really sat with you?

Owen: 13:39

Big question.

Fiona: 13:40

a big one. Isn't it?

Owen: 13:41

Yeah. I'm having to think back over the almost 20 years now.

Fiona: 13:44

Oh, wow. Is there just one thing that sticks out? Even across the whole sort of a 20 year period, just the one like DING

Owen: 13:52

There's been a lot. There's been a lot, but I think one of the biggest things that really stand out for me, and this was a relatively recent. Ping or epiphany or realization. I've had a few of those, and I'm sure we all experienced a few of these in our own individual experiences, and it's good when they happen. And this is why I advocate so much that, people really ought to do their best to connect with others, face the social anxiety and try and build up that confidence and courage to be around others. And I'll say this because I too have had, I've overcome a lot of social anxiety but having gone through that process and overcome this anxiety. I feel like I'm feeling the benefits of overcoming that social anxiety, and there's so much to be said about connecting with others because, through listening through connecting with others and listening to others, I can never predict who I'm going to meet and what I'm going to hear. And I might just need to hear a word or a sentence or a phrase in that moment that might just drop an epiphany or a ping moment, and so yeah, so to answer your question, sorry, if I digressed,

Fiona: 14:55

don't apologize. Digressing is what it's all about. It's all good.

Owen: 14:58

I was in a meeting, three, three years ago, four years ago, probably. And just talking about relationships and just having to. It's discussion around what relationships are important to us. A conversation which I'm sure many of our listeners, have had before. And I think one, person said, the relationship with himself, that's what he said, the relationship with himself. I count that's four words. And in those four words, I'm thinking well, and in that instance, yeah, reflected on the relationship with myself. And I'm thinking, my relationship with myself is not good. And I thought the way I talk to myself is not the way I would talk to a person who I grotesquely dislike, the way I realized there. And then that the way I speak to myself, the way I look after myself is really horridly abusive. And there and then I realised I need to change my relationship with myself. Further to that. I was thinking as well, I've heard this many times, but up until then, I think I've been quite blind to it, which told me actually, you throughout my experience of recovery, I may be, latching onto certain bits of information, but I may be filtering out some other bits of information perhaps because my brain doesn't comprehend it at the moment, So I think, as we progress through our journies, things become revealed because I think it's impossible for us to grasp or to hear everything all at once at the same time, we only hear what is relevant to our experience at the time. And I think, I'm just theorising here speculating? I don't know if there's any truth or validity in this whatsoever.

Fiona: 16:29

no, no, I think you're right.

Owen: 16:30

Okay, thank you.

Fiona: 16:31

Yeah.

Owen: 16:31

That's good.

Fiona: 16:32

We can only take in so much can't we, if they didn't likeit or

Owen: 16:35

Exactly. Yeah, it was a really pivotal moment and this was like 14, 15 years after, I'd engaged in drug alcohol and gambling treatment. So I went all throughout the years and ever since then, that was a big turning point. Maybe that was a bit of a PING moment for me, because ever since then, I've really reflected on the dialogue I have with myself and they felt they've been able to catch myself being abusive. I take a stance and think there's no room for this. I've got zero tolerance, attitude towards any negative abusive dialogue I have towards myself. And I realized actually, as much as I. Have the, hurt child within, I am the only person who can get in touch with the hurt and damaged, young person within and nurture him, and intensively and care for him, and it's the only way I can really heal and grow. And ever since then, ever since that moment, my recovery or experience of discovery or whatever you want to label, it has continuously and consistently got better and better and better and better, and it might be a coincidence. Because at the time I was having this conversation about relationships, I went through my worst ever rock-bottom the darkest and blackest period of my life. so yeah, so yeah.

Fiona: 17:46

do you know what? I just, something in my gut says that wasn't a coincidence. And I think that perhaps the combination of everything that was going on at the same time, sometimes it's a sort of perfect storm, really. And we talk about perfect storms that sort of tip people over into a breakdown without really talking about the perfect storms of the right sorts of things that begin to happen and the right realizations that tip somebody into a recovery, yeah. Very good. That was a magical moment. Thank you for that. Question four, which potentially should be question one. How did you get into your current role and what is it? How did you get there?

Owen: 18:22

Wow. How long have we got? So my current role is NHS gambling, peer support worker at the national problem gambling clinic, which is part of the national center for behavioral addictions as part of the Central, North and West London trust.

Fiona: 18:38

That's an email signature of a job title there.

Owen: 18:40

This is, several podcasts worth of content in itself. So I attempt to try and condense it.

Fiona: 18:45

Oh, wait, I did say that we might spawn a podcast of your own. I really meant that

Owen: 18:51

Throughout my experiences of using addiction services. I first used the national problem gambling clinic back in 2011. And this was after 10 years worth of trying to utilize, what was on offer through drug and alcohol services. But still really struggling with my gambling up until this point, I had experiences of abstaining from drugs and alcohol or gambling proved to be then the most persistent, matter for me, so I accessed the gambling clinic in 2011 and I found myself really receptive to the help that was on offer and the help that was an offer was not really much different from what I'd experienced before. Except, it was really good to meet clinicians who had specialist knowledge around gambling harm, and that is something I hadn't experienced up to this point. So that was fantastic. That was good. I was speaking to a therapist who had knowledge of gambling, and I think it's important to drive this home because I do feel, I do sense, that there has been an absence of. Understanding amongst some of the practitioners I have met over the years who have tried to help me with my gambling. If that makes any sense,

Fiona: 20:01

it's important to click with the professionals that you're treated by. And if it's a really deep seated problem or one that kind of keeps on recurring in whatever face that maybe the specialist knowledge about it is. Intensely important. I know that I only began to recover when I went to the the Portman clinic. And that was for psychosexual psychotherapy and I was astounded and all of those other words, that begin with a S like ashamed and afraid and all those other words. Where they completely understood what was going on. And suddenly it clicked and it took years to get there. So I really feel you, when you say that it took a while for treatment to click and that very specialist knowledge was required. And I think it can often be the key.

Owen: 20:45

I think so, too. Definitely. I'm just trying to think. I'm thinking back to the 10 years, I was using drug and alcohol services, as much as they helped me. I don't deny they held me. They helped me cope. They helped me get through and they helped me begin the process of getting well. But I feel they didn't, my experience didn't quite reach what my needs of my gambling. What I liked about the gambling clinic as well, was that, in the group CBT, CBT was quite bespoke. It was quite tailored again, to, to the particular needs of people who were experiencing gambling harms. And it's quite an intense session we had 8 weeks, but within those eight weeks, we was introduced to a lot of strategies and tools, which we could then easily, I won't say easily with practice, with effort we could apply. And so that was good. I responded really well to that. And for the first time, after 10 years, I managed to achieve a period of gambling abstention, for the longest period I ever had. So that was really good. And so that was my first relationship with, that was my first connection with the gambling clinic. And then I remember a few years back, I had an opportunity to, share my story in front of, some students along with the gambling conducts founder and director, Dr. Henry Bowden Jones. I hadn't done any, I hadn't shared story before, so this was a fantastic opportunity. And it was filmed and it was a very powerful experience, something that always stayed with me. And so I did that and that's now on YouTube and it's got over 50,000 views, which I'm really quite pleased about. so yeah, it is because I'm glad that must all, we actually got out there and other people ever since then, I've had a lot of feedback, just congratulating and thanking me for helping me, because I told my story and the ultimate internet help them out.

Fiona: 22:29

Yeah.

Owen: 22:29

So fast forward the past four or five years, unfortunately, because I think I consider myself to be someone who's had. Complexity and, core issue stuff alongside my addictions, which I've struggled to deal with, which have undermined my recovery. I found myself. Relapsing heavily, two or three times over the past few years, because I wasn't able to deal with some very specific issues around, rejection and attachment, and things like that. So I ended up Re- engaging with the gambling clinic, thankfully, on the second time and fortunately a third time, cause I found, it was just good just to once I relapsed, it's just good to, just reengage. and yeah, get that support because I knew that my experience of group CBT and one CBT, what was good for me. And I'm grateful that, yeah, I'm grateful to have had that experience because that lifted me out of one of my worst ever, periods. When I was looking at the whole gambling treatment network, including the gambling clinic or the other gambling treatment providers, such as GAMCARE, and all it's partners and Gordon Moody and others. I was thinking that there's an absence of it. Any peer support work ever, there's nothing pretty much. But when I looked at my experience of the drug and alcohol treatments, I am thinking, theres peer mentors, A large percentage of the workforce are comprised of people with lived experience, et cetera, et cetera. But when I look at the gambling treatment provision, there's nothing. And I remember a few years ago, tweeted Claire Murdoch

Fiona: 23:57

a good one to tweet.

Owen: 23:59

Absolutely. Yeah. And incredible. Yeah. I think there's some conversations about peer support working then I asked her is there any peer support working in the gambling clinic? And I remember receiving a response. I can't remember what I received, but months passed anyway. And then an opportunity, I realized an opportunity a position, had opened up and people were invited to apply for the role of gambling peer support worker at the gambling clinic. So I jumped at the opportunity, The experience, was a completely new experience for me of applying and going through the recruitment process. I'd never experienced anything like it. Because previously I'd undergone lots of ordinary normal jobs that millions of people do, In the hospitality sector and factory work and things like that. The experience of the recruitment process was very thorough long, but, it's a good process. It was a good experience. And I was very fortunate to, to have been successful.

Fiona: 24:50

It's so different from every other recruitment process anyone's ever been through. Whenever I make an application for any level of NHS jobs, it takes me two days, two full afternoons at the computer. And then there's the process of getting the interview, the process of having the interview, the process of potentially having to make a presentation for the interview and then the almost seemingly endless HR stuff. And then of course the absolutely massive induction because the NHS is a behemoth bound by so many different laws and things. Peer working is quite a new thing to the NHS in England, I say new obviously been going on for well over 10 years, but counts as new for NHS. Did you have anyone to help you through the process or did you just chip away at it?

Owen: 25:37

I chipped away and just hoped and just had my fingers crossed nice and tight.

Fiona: 25:40

It's wonderful to have you, you joined wasn't that long before the COVID pandemic hit, Was it?

Owen: 25:47

shortly before. So I started my post in the December 2019, COVID hit us in March 2020

Fiona: 25:58

You literally just got settled in and then you were suddenly working from home. I remember that it was amazing the resilience that you showed, picking yourself up and getting on with it after that. Describe your typical working day using only five words.

Owen: 26:13

Yes, I can do this. So The most rewarding ever.

Fiona: 26:19

I love that. That's so perfect. See, this makes me want to leave this question in couldn't imagine a better answer. So number six, which is long one, what are you most proud of in your work? One story

Owen: 26:34

I'm not too sure if I have, and they amazing stories to offer and, Yeah.

Fiona: 26:41

Fair enough.

Owen: 26:42

I'm proud of working in my role. I wouldn't say I've experienced anything that makes me go well, I'm really proud of that. I don't know if this sounds, I don't know how this sounds doesn't sound too bad, but,

Fiona: 26:52

I get it. It's hard to put your finger on it. Hearing the parts of your story that. You ought to be proud of your entire recovery recovery is not all of unicorns and rainbows, I feel includes relapse, but I think that's a personal view, but you might not be the kind of person that picks out individual sort of highlights but maybe, you're rather just proud of every day as it comes. Would that be true to say.

Owen: 27:15

Yeah, it would be, I'm looking at my experience of being a Gambling peer support worker as part of the past eight years in particular, Not just my own personal experience of engaging in drug alcohol and gambling services, but over the past eight years or so, I've been involved in the gambling sector. Following on from, my video with Dr. Henrietta Boden Jones, I was one of the first people that lived experience to enter break into the gambling sector. And I use these words with intent because when eight years ago, the gambling sector, which comprises of the gambling regulators, commission, treatment providers, various M.P.s lawyers, researchers academics, when I found myself, going to conferences and events, there was virtually a complete vacancy of any people with lived experience. There was a couple literally just one or two very few minimal. And it was a very closed, very private kind of space, as a totally different sector. And I was literally one of the very first people that's experienced. There's just a small handful of us that entered this space at that time. And over the past eight years, the sector itself has come through very fast, very quick, very rapid change. And how it looks today, how it feels today. Is it completely. Different to how it was back then. I'm glad to say, the whole gambling sector, including treatment for them, have really opened up their arms to, to recognize and appreciating the value of people with lived experience of gambling harms in particular.

Fiona: 28:47

Yeah,

Owen: 28:47

There is a long way to go. The sector is at beginning of the journey in recognition of the value of people with lived experience. And in this process and this experience, I've had a lot of opportunity, to meet, a lot of experts and professionals are involved in the sector from across the world. And it's the exposure I've had has been fantastic, bearing in mind, I grew up, having to fight homelessness and destitution and, to be put into this world where I'm completely exposed to a world of psychiatry, psychology GP, general practice and politics, economics business, and to be exposed to all of these disciplines and to have the opportunity to learn about all of this, and has been a really powerful, positively powerful experience. Over the years, I've took opportunities to, to share my story through various, media platforms, which has been good largely overall. And I've been engaged in lots of research and spoken at the house of Lords, parliamentary committee on gambling harms. I've done lots of stuff. I've had lots of exposure to lots of staff and it's been really good. So I'm proud. I'm really proud of what I've done, what I've achieved,, what I've experienced. And it still feels really surreal I'm just glad as well that, I've done my little bit too, ultimatley help others, and to raise a flag, and trying to raise awareness of gambling harms

Fiona: 30:06

I was just gonna say, I think it's typical of a true pioneer to be so modest about what are really important trailblazing achievements to go from where you were, as you were just saying, to being suited and booted. And in these really important places, being able to speak your truth, being able to use your experiences, however, good, bad, ugly they were, and genuinely effect real change. Real societal change is as you say, an incredible privilege, but also something that could only be done by somebody who's got a certain. Determination and intelligence and articulation about them which you have, quite rightly that's the thing to be the most proud of, I think, is your really your influence and the way that you have led the way

Owen: 31:02

and lots more are coming well, thank you for words as well. That means a lot because the actual experience, for example, the experience of doing that podcast, I spoke about earlier on that was a fantastic experience and it was really exciting. It was fun. And, but it feels like over the years, all of these experiences that I've had, all this unusual, extra ordinary, exposure I've had, it feels that it becomes almost normal now, also within this experience as well. It's been a typical example of the power of stepping outside one's comfort zone. I understood this concept very early on through other services. I was engaging in about how important it is and how valuable it is to step outside the comfort zone. I've carried this principle, this practice with me throughout all my adult life and stepping into the gambling sector is one perfect example of me continuously stepping out of my comfort zone and being uncomfortable at times, Uncomfortable, but learning to be okay with being uncomfortable and just trying very hard to face that anxiety, that fear, but just steadily allowing myself just to climatize to it, so that in time, you know those situations that once invoked a lot of anxiety and fear in me no longer did. And so by doing that, I've done what I've done, I've achieved whati have achieved, at times, stepping up my comfort zone has subjected me to a lot of real strong, powerful emotions. And it's putting me at risk of rejection. I'm someone who is extremely sensitive to rejection. And at times, some of the experiences that have been really triggering for me, because I'm really oversensitive to perceived threats of rejection and things like that. And a lot of the situations that I've experienced have been really triggering and also, by having that kind of exposure, it's forced me to learn a lot about myself, in terms of my own levels of competency and the ability and fell into the trap of comparing myself to a few times and to witness other people achieving it in weeks. What I have tried to achieve in years, that in itself has proved a very uncomfortable as well. And so what I'm trying to say is as much as I've really embraced the. this idea of stepping out of my comfort zone and having all these experiences and all this exposure it has at times been quite dangerous, really, and undermined my recovery and how I feel about myself. So I've on occasions. I've had to really take extra good care of myself.

Fiona: 33:18

Absolutely. It's a risky, isn't it? It's always, it's a balanced risk. A calculated risk to step outside your comfort zone and not light your fuse. As it were. Yeah. It's it's very interesting to hear you speak about that. So honestly, and authentically and so transparently. So thank you. Thank you very much for that. Nearly finished. And so we're onto the slightly trivially sounding questions which potentially should have come at the beginning. So what is your favorite listening EG, any kind of listening actually, when you need a boost

Owen: 33:50

Again, it's not too easy question to answer, I'm experiencing this shame of embarrassment

Fiona: 33:55

don't be ashamed or embarrassed. My favorite music for when I need a boost is a double CD set called Viva Euro pop 90

Owen: 34:01

so when I think about the kind of music I listen to, when I need a boost it has to be some kind of techno Gabba techno, or, Born Slippy, Underworld, that kind of stuff. And Yeah. Yeah. Something really energizing and, I've my biggest fear is dancing, but so sometimes I find myself, if I'm having a quiet evening by myself and I've got some music on, then I have a little dance myself, in my private space. but I found myself just being able to really let go then, but, I think, if I knew, if I do need a bit of energizing, then definitely some good techno usually hit the spot there. Yeah,

Fiona: 34:39

Fantastic. That just makes me want to listen to Underworld now, especially born Slippy. I have to admit, I really hated it at first. It grew on me and then I became completely obsessed. Finally, and obviously importantly, is your favorite biscuit and why?

Owen: 34:54

These have all been really challenging questions and this is no different. Over the years, over the years, my favorite biscuits has changed, multiple times. I remember a time when I used to like Bourbon biscuits and I easily could easily open a packet and eat a pack of Bourbon biscuits. And then I went onto Krispy Kreme and I've had phases on wagon wheels. think currently I think Jammy Dodgers, or probably. Jaffa cakes, but no ordinary Jaffa cakes. I do the normal, it Jacobson's Jaffa cakes, but they're not my favorite. I think my favorite ones are the cheaper versions you can get there's a couple of cheaper versions, but only one type of the cheaper versions.

Fiona: 35:35

What's your secret? Where's the very best fake cheap Jaffa cake from.

Owen: 35:39

Okay. I'm not entirely sure. I couldn't tell you. you'd have to look in your nearest shop.

Fiona: 35:45

We might have to do some actual, real life research here. What did you think of the jammy Dodgers with all the different flavors? Like the toffee ones

Owen: 35:51

I've tried, an Apple one lately and there was a Unicorn Rainbows one I came across yesterday.

Fiona: 35:58

Really?

Owen: 35:58

Yeah. But I decided not to do it. I'm thinking, no, it's just not good, but based on my experience of the Apple ones, I'm thinking, so not as good as the normal ones, I'm

Fiona: 36:07

Yeah. Don't touch classic. Yeah. Do you think that changing biscuit tastes reflected your recovery arc? Do you feel that later you might be into Marks and Spencer short breads?

Owen: 36:18

Hopefully, my appetite for biscuits, won't be there because I've enjoyed my biscuits too much over the years.

Fiona: 36:25

There's a reason why this question's in here, I do feel that Tea in fact, and biscuits is a really central part of any 12 step recovery program, but also a really essential part of any of those sort of British kind of social things. And it seems to cross classes and be quite diverse as well. So it's not as if you would go to somewhere with a very specific meeting and not be offered pretty much the same team biscuits as you would down the road somewhere. Quiet. Fancy. there's something about tea but there's also something about biscuits and particularly the manufactured ones that come out of the pack and the in the supermarket, there's definitely a biscuit hierarchy. but I think that someone's favorite biscuit does always reveal something and it does always open up a little piece of conversation. that's why it's in there,

Owen: 37:12

Yeah, I suppose it gives us a glimmer into someone's life.

Fiona: 37:15

It remains one of those English social lubricants, doesn't it really? Tea and biscuits.

Owen: 37:20

I don't know if you tried Jam my wagon wheels now they are quite good.

Fiona: 37:23

I was unimpressed by wagon wheels. Having spent a lifetime, unable to eat them with an allergy to dairy. Recently, my allergy to dairy has abated which I believe is down to being alcohol free for so long now. But I wasn't impressed. I felt sad. I felt like this monument of my childhood that I'd been unable to touch for so many years was actually quite disappointing. Biscuit. Thank you. Yeah. It's just been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for lending me your time

Owen: 37:52

cool.

Fiona: 37:52

Thank you very much for being a part of peers in a pod.

Owen: 37:56

Yeah. No, thank you. Yeah. Hope it went well.

Fiona: 37:59

I think it went well.

Owen: 38:00

And I think because we both have experience of peer support, that helps, massively because there's understanding there's shared experiences, common experience. Isn't there?

Fiona: 38:08

I love that you're, there's a few peers active on Twitter and I'm semi active on Twitter, but I do follow you and Claire Murdoch, of course. So what's your Twitter handle?

Owen: 38:17

I was going to say, yeah. As you mentioned that y'all might as well just give everybody my Twitter handle. So it's@owenbaily1982

Fiona: 38:25

Owen Bailey without E 1982 classic year. Yeah, Twitter. Fantastic. Don't forget to follow me on@FionaThePSW on Twitter. Upcoming episodes include all sorts of very interesting people. And i very much look forward to Having you as my listener again thank you